Comments on: The 5-year limit to being a coder in India?

By: Sumod

Sumod — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 20:46:34 +0000

Nice topic, and very interesting viewpoint. I guess you can find-replace coder/coding with resarcher/research, and it will still hold true. But in research more than anywhere else there is a perceived limit on age, though there has been lots of exceptions (Sung by everyone including Hamming, Hardy… ). It is kind of statistically true that people do their best research (esp in math, science and technology) in their 20′s and 30′s. The areas like humanities, social service favors people in later stages of life. So I guess, that also might be the reason ppl shift to managerial (leadership) positions, but yeah 5yrs is way too small by any standards…

I guess in IIT’s ppl work very very hard, they want to succeed but many of them are not interested in Science/Technology really. It is just that, IIT’s are the highest reachable position for a smart kid from middle income group after school with lots of hardwork. So innovation seldom finds home in IITs too. There are a few exceptions this too, there are ppl who really like what they do but sadly the majority don’t. And that is why it is hardly comparable to that of MIT, Stanford or CMU….

By: Siddhesh

Siddhesh — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 03:38:06 +0000

Money/investors are not the real reasons for lack of innovation in software. Look at the big software revolutions in the US and try to find out where they were born. They were born in the universities, often by students and sometimes by professors. These ideas were then capitalized upon to create a business out of it. Big businesses are seldom the sources of real innovation.

We seldom have students who think fresh. We definitely don't have an education system (or the professors) that fosters innovation (barring, maybe the IITs). We don't have a society that looks at business as a positive thing. We won't have innovation till the time this changes.

By: Pramod Biligiri

Pramod Biligiri — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:02:49 +0000

I agree with Dhananjay Nene above. Most people study CS or get into IT in India only because it’s by far the most lucrative profession (and I am no exception to that). So that mindset continues onwards. I don’t grudge Indians for trying to make the most of their opportunities because India is still a very poor country

As for “cool and interesting stuff”, the money will be there in such things only when India becomes more of a market for software. Currently that is not the case. Apart from a few local startups, most firms here cater to (or are subsidiaries of) mundane businesses in US and UK. That will gradually change with time.

That NYT article brings up an interesting point: Perhaps software innovation is irrelevant in India. Our challenges and markets lie in stuff like medicine, transportation and even agribusiness. We must remember that the IT industry has no organic roots and is mainly based on the dollar rupee differential.

By: Satish TJ

Satish TJ — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:24:06 +0000

Technical (coding ) job is a horse .. You need horse to run .. Managerial is a jockey .. to direct the horse Administrator is the goal post setter ...

The equation some how works like this ..

Being in the managerial ladder provides greater opportunity cost .... But again .. things are almost the same but a parallel ladder .. You stop using eclipse start using ppt and excel .. stop dealing with objects but with some cash flow / derivatives structuring .. This pays more since that work directly affects the business .. where as the java objects have no direct affect on business !! SO one gets fat bonus checks .. there ..

Moving a bit ahead .. One starts to think of Administrator .. The civil services ..which offers a executive position by a examination ....!! Though the pay takes a beating .. the perks which accompany and experience which it offers are the major attractions ..

So the natural expectation of people is framed by what they see around .. N feel if u r a 5+ exp in coding .. Be a manager .. U have ran the races .. now u manage the others .. which in another 5 yrs .. u again start feeling "Work does not need intelligence it needs dedication .. If at all it is such a work especially in IT industry , it will be in labs "

By: Venkatesh Sellappa

Venkatesh Sellappa — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:36:35 +0000

@Sharninder : "They’re just not doing that. Or atleast I don’t see any of that happening." Why do you that is.

@Swaroop : Yes i know the discussion is of the majority but i thought its an established fact that the majority of programmers in India are not in programming cause they like it - its the pay check, nothing wrong with that per-se. It just is. Hence my viewpoint of the individual.

By: Ramanathan

Ramanathan — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:19:22 +0000

I moved from being a staff engineer to Team Lead to Project Manager and back to team member. Currently am employed with a Boston based Semiconductor company (started way back in the 1960s) working with a group of folks some of whom are 50+ and still coding and managing enterprise infrastructure.

By: Ramjee

Ramjee — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:02:13 +0000

i. How many people understand programming basics and really love it.
ii. Most of the people around just program because it is their job, not something they like to do.
iii. It is very natural that such(point ii) will not want to do programming for more time than what you mentioned.
iv. I learnt the ART (mind you ART) of programming from some very experienced folks in US and Israel (~20 yrs of coding). Boy, what a level of difference between them and us.
v. We also fail to understand that the productivity of a good programmer is 1000notches higher than an average programmer.
vi. Our services mind set coupled with the above (point v), encourages bad / average programmers. As it means more billable hours, more maintenance hours. Sad but true, managers who finish the job ahead of time with fewer resources are never rewarded, those with a few truck load of people to accomplish a task in just about time or better delayed are rewarded both in recognition and rewards.
Where is the solution??

By: Sharninder

Sharninder — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:57:05 +0000

I have nothing against the service companies and I actually believe they’ve done achieved something significant by managing to turn programming into an assembly line kinda profession, but I think a lot of them now have the resources to invest and nurture real programmers and create real products. They’re just not doing that. Or atleast I don’t see any of that happening.

By: Abhinav

Abhinav — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:13:44 +0000

You are right Swaroop, they have done a lot and and still are doing good. And I really appreciate that. But Infosys, wipro, TCS of 1990s and early 2000 were different.
One more thing which I guess Dhananjay also sort of pointed out – programming as a career itself is very new in India. Perhaps it will take some more time to gain acceptance.

By: Swaroop

Swaroop — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:47:04 +0000

@Vasundhar Nice! Keep the fun flowing!

@Dhananjay Interesting, so there is no benefit for the service companies to have experienced programmers except for troubleshooting (when the freshers get stuck)?

@Peter Aah, thanks for the linked discussions. Was laughing at the “still stuck coding!!!?” part

@emacsian “Sad, but true”

@Sashank Glad to know there are people like you out there

@Anomalizer Wow! You wrote the same words as well: “… becomes some sort of a manager here at the end of 5yrs of work.”

@Siddhesh Yes, after a startup stint, it dawned on me on how tough it is to make money, which led me to wonder how pampered we IT workers are! We should be grateful to get this kind of salary compared to the other options out there.

@Sridhar Aah, the familiar question of “What do you do at the computer all day long?”

@Ranjani I had a similar issue when my extended family came to know that I didn’t join Infosys and joined some other company they had not heard of… “How is this company Yahoo, is it good?” is what they asked

@Thejesh Agreed!

@Aditya Interesting to note the “architect who doesn’t code > coder” assumption, I realized even I had that till a year back!

@Philip Of course! Frankly speaking, you’re the holy grail

@Ranjani @Sharninder @Jess Thanks for your inputs on the discussion.

@hj91 I can understand you are bitter, but that was too caustic! If we apply this logic to coders, imagine the rest of India whose take-home is nowhere near what IT workers get :-O

@shadows Regarding “manager even gave me bad ratings”, OMG!

@Abhinav I think all of us, me included, take digs at the service companies, but I think that is unfair. They took advantage of a business opportunity and they gave jobs to so many people, it is something to be appreciated. I think we are just lacking the “room to experiment” culture (for whatever historical reasons) and hence the current state.

@Venkatesh We are not talking about individual cases here, but about the case of the majority of IT workers.